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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1414
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 16:52:35 -
[1] - Quote
I think a 10 agressive acts limit would do wonders to normalize the current war dec system.
You get 10 active agressive acts. You can have 10 war decs that you initiate, 10 assists that you accept to help someone or you can slide the bar side to side for any combination that adds up to 10.
If you wardec an alliance that's 1 agressive act. If 20 corps leave that alliance you now have 21 active war decs, but only 1 agressive act (the fail cascade is passive).
If someone war decs you and you put out for assist and get 12 corps on your side that adds up to zero agressive acts for you, but the 12 assisting corps each get 1 boink for actively pushing the assist button.
In the current system war decs are totally meaningless. 100+ decs is just about cheap targets. There is no meaning behind them.
Don't listen to Vimsy. If you check that chick's kb you can see she's just a risk averse free loader abusing the system. She'll hold on to the current crap mechanics for dear life. She pvp's all day every day and never loses ships. That would lead you to believe she's either risk averse or pvp elite. I wanted to find out and challenged her to a thunderdome 1v1 (see crime and punishment forum for details). It's basically 2 pilots enter one pilot leaves. She refused. Started clucking about it being dumb to take fights you might lose and some such nonsense. She's self documented she's only in it for the win, so disregard her as a cowering moppet terrified she might lose her current security blanket. |

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1414
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 17:05:08 -
[2] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:My personal preference would be a mixture between the current system and the previous one.
Wherein corporations are restricted in the number of wars they can declare, but pay a much lower fee to declare war. This would incentivize smaller pvp groups and remove the pay-barrier that prevents groups of newer or less experienced players from forming highsec pvp corps. Alliances would remain unrestricted but would pay as much as they do now.
I'd also like to see the ally system opened up to work both ways, allowing the aggressor to bring in an ally if the defender does. This would present a risk of escalation that would disincentivize mercs hopping on to any war where they think the aggressor is easy kills and also facilitate big spiraling conflicts that would be super cool.
Both of those things put together should help to both break up larger groups by making corps actually competitive with alliances and lower the bar to entry for highsec pvp without nerfing anything.
Except that most of the hs merc corps are all in the same chat channel and work things out. (I was in that or one of those channels years ago) So you know your 'escallating blah blah blay' is just a poorly disguised request to allow agressors to bring in help if they get over their head. The risk averse just drips off of you sweety. We can smell it on you as soon as you walk into the room.
Even with the current mechanics that truely favor you - you still want more. All the time saying the current system is what the carebears asked for. I'll clear that up for you. The carebears didn't get together and ask CCP to create a war dec system where 4 100 dude merc corp/alliances can hold 100+ active decs open and sit in 6 locations in new eden and just pummel them. It's ludicris to claim the bears asked to be shot like fish in a barrel. Just stop with the rhetoric. It's garbage talk and we can all see that.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1414
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 17:10:40 -
[3] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: Don't listen to Vimsy.
Conversely, I would advise every not to listen to you, since you've spent pretty much your whole posting history crying about how PvP doesn't have oppressive handcuffs and punitive mechanics attached to every aspect of it. You're a disgrace.
Care to compare kb and pvp history?
And to clarify, I'm actually saying HS pvp does have oppressive handcuffs and punitive mechanics attatched to several aspects of it.
I'd just like to see it balanced.
Are you a vimsy alt? |

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1414
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 17:12:56 -
[4] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:It's not like I have 5+ years of experience as both an carebear defender and as a director in a highsec mercenary corp/alliance and been witness to several different iterations of the war declaration system or anything.
I wouldn't know anything about it.
Instead you should listen to people with no relevant experience who're openly disdainful of the fact that highsec PVP exists at all. Those are the people whose input about highsec PVP mechanics is valuable.
Let's do a 1v1 sweety. You and me. I'd like to see how you feel about an actual balanced engagement.
Until you can accept a 1v1 it's pretty obvious you're just in favor of unbalanced garbage play and should be ignored.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1414
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 17:19:39 -
[5] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:You're welcome to come to Nourvukaiken and 1v1 me whenever you want.
Is that a yes you are accepting a 1v1?
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1416
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 19:17:06 -
[6] - Quote
Andrew Gernander wrote:Well that's why you increase the wardec fee for a corp with no assets in space or possibly make a social corp class which is much more expensive to wardec.
In nature, an object follows the path of least resistance. If given the choice of having to spend 1bln + to declare war on a bunch of guys with only mining barges to their names, or taking the contract on the war where the guy has already said he's going to be going after X tower in Y system during Z week, I'll take the second offer as there's a better chance of a fight.
Of course, if you're in a social group and have decided to talk smack against a larger entity, then the larger entity should be able to suck up the cost to lay the smack down, or just go out and gank you.
So I happened to be in a merc (ish) chat channel a few nights ago. A dude shows up and asks "are you guys taking contracts?" Not my channel so I waited for a few minutes and no one answered the guy, so just to be funny by swiping a contract from them right in thier own channel I negotiated w/ the dude. He's going to mail me next week to finalize, but bottom line he's going to pay me a billion isk to wonk a guy in a particular ship in a particular station. It's literally going to be a 30 second job.
My point is some random is willing to pay me 1 billion to wonk a dude w/ no real discussion. 1 billion isk isn't all that much. There is sooooo much liquid and semi liquid isk in eve right now I don't think trying to put a financial limit on decs could really be a thing. If you want to correct war dec fees, then make it lower for smaller decing bigger and higher for bigger decing little. It's a great isk sink for the game and scaling it that way would encourage new groups to enter into HS pvp and would reward small lean effective groups and kind of put the kabosch on large bloated freeloading alliances.
There is too much wealth in the game to have high entry fee add meaning to HS pvp. I'll use the goons as an example. They're really good at eve and have been for quite a few years. Think of the biggest isk amount your brain can handle. They have more. A lot more, so if you want to raise the dec price enough to make a 5000 dude alliance think twice - I'd start somewhere in the trillions. And the thing about goons, if you made it prohibitively high, they would take the challenge and do it anyway just because. So price scalling - yes to promote the little guys getting into the game, but never to make large groups think twice about it.
If you want to put the war dec ship back on course - limit the number of concurrent agressions. You want meaning back in empire pvp then you have to take away the current 'unlimited decs' meta. From the lore aspect - you're already paying a fee for CONCORDS sanction, so just issue dance cards with only 10 slots. |

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1416
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 19:41:50 -
[7] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:I'd just like to see it balanced. Ahh, so: "Just one more nerf and it will be balanced."?
Quit the rhetoric. I don't want it nerfed. I want it meaningful. HS pvp can be a lot of fun. The biggest plus to HS pvp is no hot drops. That's a huge incentive for folks to use game mechanics to fight each other in HS. Being able to make some explosions knowing 100% that a super and a ton of support isn't going to land on your head and end you is pretty darn special. You can still get blobbed, sure, but with reasonable intel you can get around it.
I'm not trying to nerf, I'm trying to balance. 100+ open deck turkey shoots aren't balanced. 100+ pilot alliances having 10,000 RANDOM war targets in HS isn't balanced.
I just want it to be fun and meaingful again. Right now it isn't. I'm not the coroner trying to nail a coffin shut, I'm the EMT in the back of the ambulance charging up those paddle thingers trying to jolt some life back into a once great area of game play.
There hasn't been an epic, notable, noteworthy anything out of empire pvp in a long time. Currently empire mercs are doing nothing of interest. The don't make the news (other than the occaisional high five over an officer fit mission boat).
Things I like - space ship explosions
Things I don't like - boring predictable meaningless pvp, sentries on ishtars, sentries on carriers, space magic that protects sov null assets from being taken by force |

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1416
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 20:21:02 -
[8] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:But what you're proposing isn't a correction. It's an additional limitation where none previously existed.
Prior to inferno alliances had no limitation on he number of wars they could declare, after inferno they still have no limitation, but for some reason now they declare a lot more wars.
You should try and identify the reason why that has happened and seek to address the actual cause, rather than crying for another nerf because the last set of nerfs didn't work.
A lot of things have changed since inferno. Before that the number of decs were limited by the rapid ramping up of additional war decs. In isk terms of that day the ramp was pretty severe. Folks didn't have billions or trillions in their wallets back them.
Privateers got to the point where they were decing most of HS. Their actions caused CCP to install a rather harsh ramp up for concurrent war decs. I clearly remember the last 2 weeks of the Privateer stuff. Back then the mym had a BS tank, drones and autocannons. There were 2 of them on almost every gate in HS. Null folks dropped what they were doing and swelled the ranks of Pivateers for those 2 weeks and it was glorious empire carnage. The end of an age and a brilliant glorious end at that.
The short age of the ramp followed. After the 5th active dec, few corps had the isk to cover the dec fee for mercs, so it was normal for there to be a line 2 or 3 weeks out of clients waiting for the fees to drop. Clients were in a que so to speak. A lot of merc corps sprung up overnight to cash in on the isk. A lot of them were crap corps that did crap work, but there was plenty of work so it persisted.
Then inferno changed it to what it is today. Not at first. But over time it became obvious that the way to succeed as a merc corp was to grow big and fat and offer assistance on every dec that is made. It's rediculous.
I had an alt in a POCO bashing corp for a while. Was a decent way to generate some limited HS pvp. Here's the thing that got me understanding just how broken the current merc meta is. We'd occaisionally get decced for waht we wer doing and within the hour of getting the dec the mails would start rolling in. Offers to assist that ranged anywhere from free to 10 mil isk. It was then that I understood - it wasn't about anything but maximizing target count. 'merc' outfits no longer needed to maintain a good reputation and compete for their empire pvp - they just needed some ninny to scan the decs and spam the involved parties as war decs were created.
I would just like to have the mechanics changed to where merc groups were again in competition and where reputation and ability drive the contract price. This current meta of large target counts and low to zero value in a war dec is crazy.
Summary: There was an isk ramp limit on the number of decs you could have. There was not an assist option in the game. Assist was added and the ramp was removed and now we have a crap meta. I don't see value in removing the assist feature - it's good stuff. I don't see value in returning to the isk ramp (pay to win and too much isk presently in the game). I do see value in a limit in the number of acts of agression (decs + assists) - my opinion is that this will put meaning back into both war decs in general and the 'merc market' in specific. I picked 10 as a starting limit - I based that on we used to cary 5 -7 contracts and that was plenty of action for a healthy merc corp of the time so I sort of doubled it for a starting point) I would prefer to 100 ten man merc outfits competing than to see 10 hundred man merc outfits shooting fish in a barrel.
Don't nerf empire pvp - make it fun again. |

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1417
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 21:05:42 -
[9] - Quote
David Asanari wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Oh, and I love the part where you claimed that disagreeing with you is "abusing" you. First of all, if you are so emotionally fragile as to actually believe that, then my advice is to quit this game and never look back.
Secondly, if you are so intellectually dishonest as to try and make the claim that disagreement equates to abuse, then you're not only a fool but also a hypocrite, since you're the one disagreeing with how the game is supposed to be played in the first place. You called me names multiple times in this thread and also said things like "You have no right to do anything" and you constantly insist on telling me to leave the game. If this is your way of having a discussion or disagreeing with someone then you are the one that doesn't belong here on the forums. I'm not fragile, but that doesn't mean that you're not being abusive. There is a good chance you acted this way against people who were fragile perhaps and that this is your "style" of discussion. I also highly doubt you behave the same IRL hence the need for the online aggression.
You're a ninny. I mean that in the sincerest possible way.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1419
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 11:31:11 -
[10] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:David Asanari wrote:Hi War declaration mechanism is abused. For some corps/alliance is it simply a way to circumvent the hi-sec security mechanisms, basically turning it into a big, highly populated null-sec zone.
... ... ...
I'm pretty sure that wasn't the original idea behind this feature. I think it's wrong and needs to be dealt with. Just about everything has already been said in this thread, but OP on this bit, your assumption isn't necessarily correct. The devblog from the 2012 changes to wardecs: CCP Soniclover wrote:Out of these speculations we came up with a few guidelines, which can be summarized as follows:
- Tighten the war system, so it becomes clear how wars start, proceed and end.
- Make war progression (i.e. how everyoneGÇÖs faring) more visible, both for strategic and status reasons.
- Make fighting wars a viable career path for dedicated mercenary corps.
So providing a viable career path for dedicated mercenary corps was exactly one of the key guidelines CCP used when designing the current system. Those Corps are quite successful and if they have a lot of wars, it's as much because they are good at what they do (and so get hired a lot) as it is anything else.
Since we're quoting this thing:
Q: War dec cost, number of aggressor wars. A: The number of wars the declaring corp has still modifies the cost.
Can someone from guardians (I like and trust them) tell me what this is? Specifically how does the number of wars modify the cost? Back in the day it was crazy steep and 100 active decs would be impossible financially - especially over the long haul. Does cost go up w/ each successive war dec? |

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1419
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 11:58:42 -
[11] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:David Asanari wrote:PIRAT alliance - 162 active wars and 53 pending wars Guardians of the Galaxy - 110 active wars Public Enemy - 12 active and 31 pending wars Quite likely a bit of overlap there. Also quite likely several nullsec and lowsec groups being included so that the mercs can freely shoot members of those groups in highsec, I.E. Marmites long war with the Imperium. Even if you take those numbers collectively, and assuming each is a seperate highsec corp, that's a mere drop in the bucket compared to the sheer number of highsec corps. Your small sample size does not provide any evidence at all to back up your assumptions that there is a problem with wardecs. Now, if you bother to do a modicum of research, you'll actually find guides on how to maintain your playstyle while under wardec. It's really not that hard. Coming to the forums and asking for yet another nerf to highsec PvP is not the way to do it, though. Learn what instas are, learn to watch local, learn to not fly blingy **** around L4 mission hubs, and life in EvE gets much easier.
To me personally - overlap is irrelevant. What is relevant is that a pilot sitting under the umbrella of 100+ decs doesn't know or even care about specific targets. It's just random wonking of what happens by.
Some math on guardians of the galaxy (again, I like these guys so not painting them as ebil - this is just math)
110 decs / 7 days in a week = 15.7
15.7 / 23 hours in an eve day = .7 hrs
.7hrs X 60 min in an hour = 41 minuters
So, with 110 active decs if you were to equally focus on each client they would all get 41 minutes of attention during the week (at best). Guardians of the Galaxy are not a merc corp. Current mechanics allow them to spam 110 corps through various means and then wonder around New Eden wonking them. The current mechanics support indescriminant decs with no meaning or value.
Here's the biggest downside I see: Miner Dudes 4 Evah have moved in on the belts normally harvested by Mining Unlimited Construction Corp. MUCC (50 aspiring miners) decides to settle this the eve way - they drop a war dec on MD4 (40 pesky intruders) with the intention of burning them to the ground for not knowing their place in the universe. Sadly MD4 and the major 'merc' corps have read:
Q: A declares war on B. B enlists help of ally C. Can A now bring in D? Or is this option only limited to the defender? And if A brings in D, is D at war with B and C, or just C? A: Only the defender can call an ally. There is no limitation to how many allies he can call. The ally counts as being at war with the aggressor corp.
So MD4 (not being totally stupid) posts up for allies. They are about to start searching for some help when the mails from 12 'merc' corps flood their inbox. They click 'hell yeah' to all the assistance they can get.
Moral of the story: MUCC is trying to do the right thing and engage a corp for awesome game reasons. The current mechanics turn their 50 vs. 40 meaningful conflict into a 50 vs. 300 shitpusher that basically wastes a week of their time and most likely demoralizes some of the MUCC membership. Basically it sucks that a corp that 'gets it' can't 'do it' because the current assist mechanics have the option of changing anything meaningful into garbage.
MUCC vs. MD4 is where pvp folks are born. The current mechanics turn good intentions into something akin to stepping on a rake in your back yard. (for those of you who are city folk - the handle flies up and wonks you in the face so hard you see those little blue cartoon burdies and stars flitting around your head)
To be clear on Guardians. They have style. I like the one's I've run into. I don't blame them for using the current bad mechanics. I think they would be able to succeed under any mechanics. So they were just for a math example! |
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